Degrees of delusion

I’ve been hav­ing an inter­est­ing debate with some athe­ists (well I think it’s inter­est­ing and this is my blog after­all) over at the Friendly Athe­ist after the Friendly Athe­ist him­self made this claim:

Now, how do we shame those peo­ple who believe in reincarnation?

Or those peo­ple who believe that Heaven or Hell are actual places?

Or those peo­ple who believe that a god cre­ated the world in a week, that Adam and Eve were actual peo­ple, or that Jesus came back to life after being killed and has any abil­ity to cleanse us of sins now?

It’s all the same degree of delu­sion

Empha­sis mine.

I didn’t like the idea that Chris­tians, who are monothe­ists, are as delu­sional as either pan­the­ists those who see God in every­thing, every­where (eg Hin­dus who, crudely speak­ing, believe in rein­car­na­tion because spir­i­tual mat­ter can not be lost), or poly­the­ists who believe in many Gods.

I think as soon as you add the word “degree” into a state­ment like that you have to show that all these beliefs are equally ridicu­lous. I think it’s patently clear that they’re not. Mostly because there are cer­tain beliefs that are uni­ver­sally ridiculed — like Scientology.

I think it’s funny that athe­ists seem quite happy gen­er­al­is­ing about Chris­tians using the most crazy fun­da­men­tal­ist doc­trines they can find while at the same time refus­ing to allow Chris­tians to gen­er­alise about athe­ists — because they’re all different.

In the dis­cus­sion I put for­ward a propo­si­tion, which I think was a good one, and as yet nobody has addressed it in their responses… I’ll repro­duce it here.

“I often won­der if the athe­ist cause would be bet­ter served by sup­port­ing the Chris­tians who are try­ing to teach other Chris­tians good doc­trine rather than throw­ing out the prover­bial baby and bathwater.”

  1. 1

    The only athe­ist cause that might be agreed upon by athe­ists is to have a place at the table of life. To sup­port this cause, many athe­ists, with the help of the inter­net, are start­ing to become more vocal and vis­i­ble. To sup­port the return to more ortho­dox Chris­t­ian doc­trine may only serve to return the world back to a time when athe­ists have to return once again under­ground and keep their non-belief hid­den. It is prob­a­bly unrea­son­able to expect many athe­ists to want to help the ortho­dox Chris­tians clean up their own the­o­log­i­cal house. Some athe­ists may even see oppor­tu­nity in social accep­tance with with the reper­cus­sions of the rise of the right-wing evan­gel­i­cal move­ment (at least in the US).


  2. 2

    Jeff,

    Cor­rect Chris­t­ian doc­trine shouldn’t be afraid of criticism.

    For starters — the Bible was writ­ten first to a peo­ple group who were a minor coun­try in the Mid­dle East, and sec­ond to a group of peo­ple with the expec­ta­tion that they be a per­se­cuted minority.

    The idea that Chris­tians should be in the ascen­dancy and impos­ing their belief sys­tem on oth­ers rather than con­vinc­ing peo­ple of the truth per­son­ally is a rel­a­tively new idea.


  3. 3

    And an idea rel­a­tively for­eign to any­body out­side of Amer­ica. The polit­i­cal sys­tem in the US has been pretty messed up by bad doc­trine. Fix the doc­trine and you (hope­fully) fix the politics.


  4. 4

    Nathan,

    I’m curi­ous. What year in Chris­t­ian his­tory would you con­sider the most exem­plary time as far as doc­trine? If Chris­tian­ity has become a vic­tim of its own suc­cess and for­got­ten its ori­gins, how far back does one need to go to have a good exam­ple of the true spirit of the move­ment? 600 AD? 300AD? 100AD? Or does one only need to look back a hun­dred years or so?

    Jeff


  5. 5

    This is a good ques­tion Jeff. And I’ve been think­ing about it since you posted it. It deserves a longer answer — and I’ll prob­a­bly turn it into a post.

    I don’t think Chris­tians have ever nailed down doc­trine per­fectly. Each gen­er­a­tion brings new and dif­fer­ent strug­gles for Chris­tians. I’ll answer your ques­tion assum­ing, for a moment, that Chris­tian­ity is true, and that the Bible has a sig­nif­i­cant role to play in guid­ing both our under­stand­ing of God and our con­duct as his people.

    In the early cen­turies — prior to Con­stan­tine — Chris­tians were fac­ing ter­ri­ble phys­i­cal per­se­cu­tion by the state. The Bible has a lot to say to these peo­ple because it assumes that Chris­tians will func­tion as a cul­tural minor­ity. We have prob­lems today when we extrap­o­late things writ­ten to the orig­i­nal audi­ence (and I believe one of the first prin­ci­ples of under­stand­ing the Bible is under­stand­ing its mean­ing for the first read­ers). The early church didn’t have to deal with issues of sep­a­ra­tion of church and state because they were quite clearly in oppo­si­tion to the state. And yet they were told to pray for them and respect their authority.

    They also didn’t have the ben­e­fit of hav­ing the Bible as a sin­gu­lar book — instead rely­ing on teach­ings of the early church and a smat­ter­ing of let­ters — the texts that were later col­lated into one book for easy reference.

    Clearly from the point the church was insti­tu­tion­alised by the Roman Empire it became a tool for two mas­ters — Rome, that wanted to extend the empire/political power, and Chris­tians who wanted to see the gospel taught.

    I would see the period of time where the church played an active role in sup­press­ing the pop­u­lace, and treat­ing the Bible as the realm of priests alone, was a par­tic­u­larly dark period. I think there were gen­uine Chris­t­ian churches in that time — but I think his­tory shows us that the church was a vehi­cle for ter­ri­ble atroc­i­ties like the Cru­sades born out of either greed or a bizarre dis­pen­sa­tion­al­ist the­ol­ogy that taught that the phys­i­cal Israel had some value to Christians.

    There have been bright lights through­out his­tory that I think are great exam­ples of Chris­tian­ity being “on track” or exem­plary. I think the ref­or­ma­tion was great, I think moves to make the Bible acces­si­ble and avail­able in the com­mon lan­guage were good.

    It’s dif­fi­cult with­out com­mit­ting what you might con­sider to be the No True Scots­man fal­lacy to dis­tin­guish between the acts of those call­ing them­selves the “church” who ran around wear­ing crosses on their armour and those who actu­ally were the church (ie the body of believers).

    I don’t think “Chris­tian­ity”, defined as fol­low­ing the lord­ship of Jesus Christ, has for­got­ten its ori­gins. I think other peo­ple have har­nessed the guise of Chris­tian­ity for their own agen­das. And this has been harmful.


  6. 6
    Paul from Brisbane

    That’s what you won­der huh?
    My inter­ests s an athe­ist can never be served by any­one believ­ing in a god or gods. We can look after our­selves and need no advice from those who pro­mote super­sti­tion and mythology.Is not want­ing your help smug? Or isit that warm feel­ing you get when you know you are right and are sur­rounded by a mud­dle­headed, brain­washed mob.


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Al Bain : It was your comment that all actions should tick at least one that got me wondering. I think the three categories we have been talking about are helpful. And probably the easiest way to thi
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Nathan Campbell : I don't know that I'm restricting all actions to this trichotomy - because I think "worship" is probably another element that could be added to the Venn diagram (that would overlap heavily with the ot
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